David Hancocks on Elephants......

21-06-2006

I think this whole debate which patrick brought up is something which ALL zoos are guilty of, and it really applies to all endangered species. The elephants saga just brought these issues to the surface.

Let's face it, the real reason zoos display elephants is to attract visitors and raise attendence figures. They are guaranteed crowd-pullers. The problem then becomes what the zoos do with the money they earned. Does the money go into development of new habitats? Or does it sponsor in-situ conservation projects?

21-06-2006

Zooish

I speak from an purily European perspective. Zoos are required to remodel their exhibits to suit the behavorial and social needs of elephants in zoos. Zoos that cannot provide adequate facilities for a bull holding are treated as non-breeding locations. These only receive female non-reproductive older range elephants. Which means the species will eventually disappear from that collection.

The EEP and certainly individual zoos raise large amounts of money from their elephant exhibits for in situ conservation, also a demand from the EEP coordinator.

The EEP Coordinator, Rotterdam Zoo, provides financial assistance for elephant conservation projects in India, Myanmar etcetera. Every year new projects are incorporated and there is great coordination with IUCN's Asian elephant specialist group members on this.

Zoos in Europe are actually breeding Asian and African elephants successfully and continue to improve on their breeding record. Currently, some 10-12 Asian calves and 3-4 Africans are born each year. The track record for Asians is particularly impressive as the population is an ageing one (compared to a relatively young African population with many individuals yet to attain breeding age).

I guess particularly on the social and breeding prospect side of the equation zoos in Australia have yet to make an impact (as indeed zoos in the US need to - with only this year a elephant conservation strategy for zoos being unveiled for the next 15 years). The track record in Europe envisages self-sustaining populations of elephants by 2015 for both taxa. And the Asian elephant programme is certainly well on track to achieving that aim much earlier than expected previously.

patrick and Zukipah what do you think is missing on the Australian front with the issues that I raised concerning the elephant imports and breeding/exhibit outlooks.

Zooish on your second point: yes, zoos see elephants as crowd pullers, but within the zoo context they serve to educate visitors as to the plight of elephants in the wild and their uniqueness (and thus their value to conserve). In that respect their value is untold many times over them as individuals. WWF and IUCN, the principal conservation authorities, benefit immensely from attention to the species by visitors to zoos (as most people will never be able to make the roundtrip to a PA to view them in the wild). As to the money aspect: zoos should both invest in new exhibits that better serve the social and behavioral needs of their occupants and to sponsor in-situ projects. Increasingly zoos are required by their respective breeding programme managers to contribute financially to in-situ conservation and interlinking with managers of wild populations for mutual benefit. On the latter, veterinary protocols in captivity have been used to translocate elephants safely. In addition behavioral and social research in zoos can have a positive impact on the management of the species in protected areas.

21-06-2006

jelle,

the situatiion of elephants in zoos is by no means one that is all clean cut and easy to define worldwide. i think that is why it causes so much debate. there is a huge spectrum of examples of housing situations, breeding situations, social situations and conservation support that differ from zoo to zoo.

when i talk of elephants, though many of the issues may apply elesewhere in the world, i am talking purely from an australian perspective. here the situation is somewhat magnified since we have, and always have had, very few zoos and even fewer with elephants.

like most other places in the world our zoos where no better when it came to providing for our elephants. both melbourne and taronga zoo (the two zoos planning on importing elephants from thailand) housed their animals in very small inadequate facilities and as a result, all the usual health problems associated with these living conditions where showing signs.

these two zoos needed to update their exhibits and they knew that meant spending big money. i suppose they where naturally reluctant to do this unless they felt committed to keeping elephants in the long term.

eventually they made the decision to continue to keep elephants long-term and to build new exhibits. if they where to continue to keep them then they would need to breed them and this would mean acquiring more....and so things played out from here.

but i think what happened was that once this decision was made to keep elephants. zoo management then decided not to do the obvious and move the elephants to their sister open range zoo.

they figured they could build something in the city that would suffice, and thus get the attendance figures there to rise. this certainly was the case. the year melbournes new exhibit opened, the zoo saw the highest attendance figures the zoo had ever experienced. melbournians especially have a real sense of community and we had been fund-raising for close to a decade to build our elephants their new exhibit.

but for me and many others when opening day came, so to did an element of shock. the facilities looked great, a new elephant barn, a gorgeous little re-creation of a thai village, the elephant swimming pool... but for the more animal-savy visitors there was one uncomfortable aspect.

it really wasn't that much bigger than the old enclosure.

sure it was bigger, i mean the new exhibit is more like four times bigger. but when you are talking about one of the smallest elephant exhibits in the world (and melbournes was) four times bigger suddenly doesn't seem like that much. still the elephants where clearly much happier than they where in the old one and the zoo managed to dodge any criticisms for awhile.

but then taronga tried to play catch-up and built an even smaller new enclosure. unlike melbournes it didn't even have breeding facilites. originally, taronga zoo had planned just to bring in baby female elephants. the plan was to send the old elephants to their open range zoo, which could accomodate them with cheap alterations to, due to a death, their now vacant african bull exhibit. the baby elephant would be easy to manage, star attractions.

but people naturally got angry. the new exhibit was crap! not only was it totally unsuitable for breeding elephants, the original elephants will not even benefit from it! the zoo had always made out like integrating the old elephants with the new ones would be attempted, but it was clear it was never to be part of the plan. unlike melbourne, tarongas zoo's new elephant exhibit opened with no elephants at all. i think it gave people a different perspective.

the 21st century elephant exhibit looked pretty much like the old one. it wasn't some grand improvement that succeeded all expectations. the had essentailly just rebuilt the same thing in another part of the zoo. it was glossed up with waterfalls and palm trees, a thai-style barn and a swimming pool but the major improvements where for visitors. this was touted by the zoo as the "hilton for elephants" and "world-class" and yet, in reality it was just much of the same.

because you ask anyone what the first thing they would expect from a new "world-class" elephant exhibit and everyone will say "space".

and thats what australians wanted too. we wanted them to have space. space, SPACE, SPACE!!!!!

thats all! thats all the public really asked for. and it couldn't have been said louder, clearer or for any longer an amount of time!

it was up to the zoo experts to add restraint chutes, rubber flooring, bull facilities and all that stuff. we, the public, don't know anything about that anyway, we just know that elephants need space, space and lots of SPACE!!! and thats what we demanded from day one.

but when the zoos finally got around to building us our new exhbits they didn't deliver on this. the only prerequisite that we had asked for!

and they wonder why, when it came to bringing more elephants from thailand that people got upset????

after wasting 15 million of taxpayers money on an exhibit we think is lousy!!!

so, for most people - this is what started them off. the new exhibits are still too small. it made people wonder why, the obvious answer of sending all their elephants to open range zoos wasn't considered.

and the truth is there is only one simple answer to this, making money and something i think played a big part but isn't often mentioned - the prestige that comes with a zoo that has gorillas, tigers, giraffes and elephants... to put it simply, i don't think zoo management, who wanted their zoos to be considered "world-class" liked the idea of not having elephants in the collection.

but put the pressure on the zoo about why they didn't act on the obvious and move the elephants and all they can respond with is "the city zoos can potentially acheive greater awareness".

right, awareness that buys consevation dollars. conservation dollars that make up for the 30 million you spent on building a substandard exhibit.

you see, once you come to the conclusion that the elephants stayed in the city for commercial reasons and all the talk that taronga zoo in particular have fed the public in their campaign to get the elephants was rubbish, you sort of start to see through the whole conservation excuse.

australia could have lead the way by showing the world that elephants only belonged in open range zoos. it would have been easy too - they only had to move eight animals, and they even already owned the open-range zoos that could house them. instead, by ignoring peoples expections, with just that one important issue of space - they got every animal welfare advocate, educated conservationist and anyone else who bothered to look at the facts and figures, off-side.

and it has fuelled a bigger debate about keeping elephants in zoos in general because the answer to why they didn't provide them with space brings to peoples attention that in the end conservation has taken a back seat.

and so they can wear it.

jelle, i hope this better gives you an understanding of why the controversy of australia importing elephants has caused such a world-wide attention. it may seem stupid on the surface, but given the history of the situation i hope you understand why so many people, myself included have come to find the whole idea a little dodgy.

i don't think the zoos would have come under anywhere near as much fire had they broken peoples perception of an elephant in a "zoo" and bult them 15 acre exhibits in the country.

personally, i would love to see a healthy asian elephant breeding program start up in australia. but i'm over compromises and i'm definately over the excuse of "conservation" being used as a free ticket by zoos to do whatever they want. they have hidden under the conservation veil long enough. if thats what they are really about, then its time they started proving it.

22-06-2006

Patrick et al
I wasn't going to get into this arguement but I couldn't resist one comment.
Pat, that description of the elephants in the wild sounds wonderful. I am enturely jeolous of you.
Only one think. I will NEVER get to see that because I will never get the oppurtunity to travel there. So seeing elephants in the zoos is the ONLY way I will get to see them in the flesh. Documentaries, which animals rights groups advocate as being the ideal way to see animals, is just not realistic.
Sop yes, the reason I would like to see elephants in Australia is so that I can see them. Selfish yes. As for your wager I won't take it up beacuse you are probably right.

All this reminds me of a woman I know who is an advocate of animal rights. Fanaticly against any kind of animal/human contact ( even whale watching)
This is the same woman who once held in her arms a baby gorilla ( the first one born at Melbourne, forgot his name) and goes into raptures about it. When challenged she says that would forgo that experience if it meant no goriilas in captivity. So I ask - if you feel so strongly about it, why did you agree to hold him in the first place. You don't live up tou your values. She never can answer that.

Jason

fundraising ......
22-06-2006

i proposed that they offer much more colourful and detailed information on the real situation with orangutans. i asked them why they didn't offer this reality check for visitors and then a donation box for one of the countless projects that was trying to halt the extinction of the apes in indonesia. i wanted high-intensity fund raising!!

You will recognise this as a quote from Patrick on this thread .

Reading his passionate comments , I wonder -- is it the Melbourne Zoos management and attitude towards pro conservationists that is getting up Patricks nostrils , rather than the whole issue of trying to conserve elephants before they die out alltogether in the wild .....
I would be in the same boat if I got the same patronising nonsensical responses from my local zoo , thats for sure .

Wellington Zoo is not a perfect zoo ( Far from it !! ) but for your ( Patricks) information and interest , there is an informative notice board about the plight of tigers worldwide -- including estimated numbers of each species still alive in the wild , and also how many species are extinct ( or close to it )
There is a donation box beside the Sumatran tiger enclosure , right beside the notice , and about half of the daily keeper talk on the tigers is directly aimed at informing the public of the plight of tigers worldwide . The people are asked to give a monetary donation -- and no apologies if someone is offended by the request , either !

As part of the talk also involves giving the tiger a snack , and opportunities for fairly good close up shots , people are more than happy to stick around and watch , ask questions about tigers to the keepers , the keeper gets the opportunity to examine the tiger at close range , the tiger enjoys getting a complimentary vitamin flavoured thickshake , and people DO give money towards tiger conservation -- both within the zoos and in overseas reserves

All in all its a good party , and all parties benefit something , even if it is just a small thing . This type of fundraising works wewll here for Wellington Zoo
and I see no reason why it cant work in other zoos if it is thought through carefully . If you have a look at all the tiger/keeper photos in the Wellington Zoo photo album on Jays website , you can appreciate that there will be very few other places in the world where you can see a tiger so close -- despite the barriers . I took the photos during the tiger talk , and even though I know the keeper , I was given no special priveledges to get any closer to the tiger than anyone else that was there .

Patrick -- feel free to send this to the Melbourne Zoo management if you wish . If its good enough for the Sumatran tigers , it can be good enough for elephants , or any other animal for that matter .

22-06-2006

firstly, let me just say, i have an amazing ability to get this topic going again don't i? i mean it always get a thread running hot, usually with people arguing against my beliefs, but thats okay.....

jason, you know i'm not anti-zoo, or a radical animal rights advocate. and i don't believe that i live a life that is hypocritical of my values. the reason i brought up my experiences with seeing asian elephants in the wild was because i was trying to illustrate that a small city zoo exhibit, not only in my opinion didn't provide for its inhabitants, it was a pretty boring and uninspiring way for us to view them as well.

of course the thrill of seeing animals in the wild is always going to beat any zoo experiance a billion to one. nonetheless, whilst i have travelled through much of the world chasing that thrill - i still visit the zoo when i'm home.

i suppose there are two points that i have been trying to make.

firstly, if you look at the facts and figures the anti-elephants campaigners are right. it plan does very little for conservation considering how much money has been invested into it. you can't deny that.

and secondly, that the issue illustrates how lost zoos have found themselves once more. either public attitudes have changed faster than the zoos can keep up or zoos have been misreading them for a very long time.

i've been frustrated by this whole issue, because in the media it has turned into a "elephants don't belong in zoos argument" when for me, the issue was "elephants don't belong in that zoo". i bet there are plenty of melbourne and taronga employees who probably (albeit secretly) agree..

so rather than defend the zoos, simply because i enjoy going there and simply because the selfish side of me too wants to see those elephants with the convenience of them being just round the corner versus a 40 minute drive, i figured i would speak my mind here. i would argue that you lot, my fellow forum members, have a better understanding of zoo politics, policies, conservation, animal behaviour and needs than most. it is little supprise some of you are even aspiring zookeepers and i have no doubt you will make very good ones.

so i figured if there is anyone who will understand my argument, its you.

but more importantly, i want the people who work at the zoo to know why i (and the idea was hopefully you guys too) am so dissapointed. and incase you haven't realised this already guys....

....they read this forum.

22-06-2006

Patrick
I know you are not a 'rabid' anti zoo person, and in fact I agree with nearly everything you say about elephants. In th ened, if the zoos were truelly serious about elephant conservation they would have supported something like the proposed elephants sanctuary in Victoria and sent all their elephants there (including the to be imported animals).
Though it is a circus, Barnam and baileys in the US have an amazingly succesful breeding program for elephants ( check out their website). So does the Howletts zoo in the UK.
The reason for this I think is that there is plenty of room and PLENTY of elephants. Both places have large herds, not just 5 or 6 animals.

22-06-2006

Ps I was referring to the woman I know not living to her values.

And finally I noticed in the last Zoo news from Taronga that they mentioned two of the female elephants were just the right age to start breeding. Yet their male is just 5 years old. Sort of like breeding a twelve year old boy with 20 year old women.

I'm not even sure if a 5 year old male elephant is physically able to breed yet. So it will be several years yet before those female elephants have calves. Unless the zoo intends to try artificial insemmination.

22-06-2006

Also the African lion safari in Canada has a huge herd of Asian Elephants who have had huge sucess (in a cold climate) with Another three babies born a few weeks ago, the number of elephants seems to be very important as you say Jay, I have seen the website for the Barnam & Baileys breeding centre and WOW what a great job they are doing there, I wish we had something like this in oz, I think they opened the centre with 27 animals, wow. Anyone who is interested in captive elephant breeding should really have a look at this site.

22-06-2006

i reackon taronga will do A.I on these animals, like the 2 old enough to breed, as guy cooper (director ceo, taronga wpz) said he hopes to have the first calf "on the ground' 3 yrs after arrival!

22-06-2006

oh, don't get me started again jay!
the age discrepencies in tarongas animals is something i have brought up on the forum before. lets not forget taronga never even intended on acquiring a male in the first place, somehow they figured they could have a breeding program without one so at least they have since realised that you need girl elephants and boy elephants to make baby elephants!!!

23-06-2006

patrick,

Thanx for the explanations. I really do feel that the argument should be taken to the zoo authorities to make their exhibits bigger and better. I am rather puzzled that they do not seem to have taken on advice from the region I come from (If you need more info on breeding elephants in Europe, please do not hesitate to ask).

We have a fully functional EEP for Asians (Rotterdam Zoo as coordinator) and one developping for Africans (Ramat-Gan Zoo as coordinator). Both advocate large facilities with socially and behaviorally adept conditions for elephants. Zoos that wish to participate in the EEP's need to meet certain basic criteria for exhibits, group make-up and breeding prospects. If not they are simply not accepted into the group. Also research into elephants is becoming an big issue here. Health concerns like foot problems, anesthesia + restraining chutes, AI, hormone levels monitoring in reproductive or potentially so cows and elephant feeds are all investigated. This has created a safe environment for zoo populations to start prospering - even while the Asian population was ageing - and is now close to bringing the Asian population to break even point. Increase over imports. Imports are now made available when zoos have breeding facilities going and can accomodate breeding groups with bulls.

I sincerely hope that this example may serve the Australian situation. Personally, I was also puzzled why Taronga sent their bull of 20-30 years (prime breeding age if you ask me) was transferred to WPZ. Perhaps the exhibit at WPZ may be upgraded and the females of breeding age brought up to WPZ (while keeping a minor herd at Taronga???).

23-06-2006

Yes Jelle, Thats a real good idea, take the new females out from Taronga zoo to Dubbo at least for breeding with The mature bull (heman) and move the new younger bull out to Western plains zoo to stay permantly (at least this gives them a choise of males) which has to be better with so much more room there and one less at Taronga. Maybe take the two Auckland zoo females out to dubbo as well for a larger herd. I think the days of zoos keeping small numbers of elephants are close to coming to an end, as you have pointed out the best way is to focus on large breeding herds, since some American zoos and zoos in Europe have done this things have really made a positive change, from what I have seen in zoos overseas they should only be kept in open range type zoos and not city zoos.

23-06-2006

HAy guys heman aint a mature elephant, hes a very mature elephants, hes bloody 1 of the oldest males in captivity, hes nearly 50. and he doesnt look the best at the monet , io have seen zukis newest pics of him and hes loosing weight- signs of old age.

23-06-2006

I have been watching the debate about captive elephants in oz and as far as I can see the major problem seems to be "to much old thinking" by our zoo leaders, as we have seen with many other overseas zoos who now have moved their elephants out of the city zoos eg, London zoo is just one of them, to form breeding groups in open range type of zoos, the buck stops with our zoo leaders and they are lagging FAR behind TODAYS thinking, at the current rate of thinking they are being left WAY behind, so maybe the question is " can we play catch up" and how long will it take?, If we dont, we are going nowhere in a hurry so WAKE UP zoo leaders and have a good look at the zoos who are breeding them and keeping them in large breeding centres, Wake up. And please some one tell me what Auckland zoo is doing with their two females? why cant they send them to oz have have a real go at breeding them before its to late?. Lets have a real go at this and do it right NOW.