Gorillas at Taronga » Taronga Zoo

27-12-2007

Sorry, I think Apenheul actually imported 2.4. It was in 1975. They were Bongo and Balu(males) and Mouila, Mandji, Mintha & Lobo (females). The two males are dead but I think all four original females are still alive, Mouila at Taronga and the other three at Apenheul- Mandji had her 8th baby(male) there in October... the first fathered by Apenheul's new male 'Jambo'.

28-12-2007

Apenheul had 2 more female gorillas, Dalilah who is still alive and Tsimi who died some years ago. I am not sure if they were part of the orinigal group of imported animals but both were wild-caught too.

I don`t really understand why Tarongs sent all these females to Europe neither - isn`t there another australian zoo interested in building up a third breeding group of gorillas in Australia? I do understand why they weren`t exchanged between Melbourne and Taronga, though. Both zoos have well-established social groups with 3 breeding females each and I don`t see the need to have more. Especially if you consider that Kibabu and Motaba have both sired a number of offspring and are genetically well-represented which will it make more and more difficult in the future to place male offspring. More breeding females - more male offspring... Rigo is certainly not over-represented, but adding a new female to the group could bring a lot of problems between the females and this is the last thing Rigo needs.

28-12-2007

In this case it is the EEP Species Coordinator who decides where the surplus gorillas will go to. The Taronga and Melbourne Zoos are part of the EEP western lowland gorilla and subject to regulations and transfer recommendations put forward by the EEP Coordinator.

Secondly, a third zoo in Oz can technically become a participant in the Gorilla EEP, but must first put its case before the EEP Coordinator before being accepted. Only, when accepted and facilities meet the minimum requirements for a breeding group are met can gorillas be sent out on loan to a third zoo in Oz. Perhaps Adelaide Zoo may serve as a third component to the Australian participation in the Gorilla EEP. They have already provided a transfer house for surplus female gorillas recommended for transfer to new European destinations.

Thirdly, there may be a need in the coming years to set up a bachelor group in Oz for the growing teenager male gorilla in Taronga and Melbourne (in stead of sending them out to Japanese zoos ...).

Was the loan out to Japan part of a wider initiative to provide socialised breeding males to the JAZGA Gorilla programme (which is more or less in its infancy - most Japanese zoos are municipal and still ruled by financial dealings through municipalities that prevent a free flow of species and individuals for breeding purposes in Japanese zoos)? Questions, questions .... can someone clarify this latter point to me?

28-12-2007

Well in theory I agree Jelle that the EEP decides where the Aussie gorillas go. But in reality, the gorillas are owned by Taronga and Melbourne, and NOTHING within an EEP goes without the "ok" of the owner. The EEP recommendations are nothing but "recommendations" and the wishes of the owners are taken into consideration all the time. The EEP has no juridical power to enforce its "recommendation" - and the EEPs/the EAZA has proven in the past to be very lukewarm on kicking zoos out of the EEP or cancel the EAZA membership for lack of cooperating (see the problems with Twycross elephants and gorillas...). One case I know where the EEP decided against the will of a zoo was when the gorilla baby Makua was sent to Stuttgart although the zoo Berlin where she was born wanted to raise her themselves, and later female Effie was sent from Berlin to Leipzig and later to London. But the important detail is that neither Makua nor Effie were owned by Berlin - Makua for example is property of Frankfurt (because her father Derrick was a Frankfurt gorilla).

I have no doubt that Adelaide would get the OK from the EEP to start a new group with Taronga and Melbourne born gorillas if Taronga and Melbourne want that.

28-12-2007

Test......

28-12-2007

sorry wont let me post anything large- help me sim

28-12-2007

ill post in sections

In Australia, there are numerous zoos interested in joining the gorrilla EEP, but of course finaces come in to play, and also as simple as materplanning timelines.

28-12-2007

this thread wont allow me to send wht i want, whts up?

28-12-2007

i think there should be more cooperation between the EEP and the SSP, both populations would benefit enormously.

29-12-2007

Yes, Tsimiu was one of the original import, so maybe it was 2.5? she dsied in 2001 at Apenheul, but has a daughter(Binte) breeding at Artis, and a son (Mtonge) at Gaia Park. Dalila originally came from Copenhagen zoo.

When the Kibobo group were sent to Australia, I presumed the extra females would be a basis for starting other groups in their region. I too was surprised to see them returned to Europe instead. A new group could have been formed using any(or all) of them with e.g. Rigo from Melbourne. Also both young males at Melbourne are genetically valable too- on their mother's sides they are only offspring and neither mother has other relatives, though admittedly they're too young breed at present. I suppose when those females were ready to leave Taronga, there was no plan in process for forming a third Australian group.

29-12-2007

Yes, that's the crucial part, who actually owns the animal(s) concerned. The zoo holding a Gorilla may be overuled by the wishes of another zoo which actually 'owns' it through breeding loans or whatever. As you say, that's what happened with the young female from Berlin..

In the case of the Taronga group- I know they BOUGHT the whole group from Apenheul so I guess they can call the shots. I suspect at the time when those Kibobo daughters starting reaching maturity, no other Australian zoo had been quick enough to build or offer suitable accomodation- so they were sent to Europe instead. Adelaide or Perth seem to have missed their chances to exhibit Gorillas longterm at that stage.

29-12-2007

Corect on all counts Pertinax (as usual ). Melbourne and Taronga Zoos move their animals around after consultation with the EEP coordinator. Naturally, it's in the interest of the Australasian population for us to work with the EEP coordinator, and this has always been the case.

Although other zoos in the region have indicated an interest in holding gorillas in the future, none of them are ready at this stage - hence animals being exported rather than moved to another regional institution.

29-12-2007

in Australia at least two other zoos besides Taronga and Melbourne have indicated they would like to have goriilas-Perth Zoo in Western Australia and Australia Zoo in Queensland.
but for the time being, as ZooPro pointed out, it makes sense for the zoos in this country which actually have gorillas to cooperate with other zoos who actually have gorillas....even if this means participating internationally for now

Not sure of this...
20-01-2008

Hello.

I heard something interesting about the Gorillas a while back and I wanted to check if anyone knew more about it.

When I went to Melbourne Zoo for the first time I had an interesting discussion with a nice and friendly keeper about the Gorillas at both Melbourne and Taronga Zoos.

The keeper said the two zoos had an agreement many years ago that Sydney would only keep Chimpanzees and Melbourne only Gorillas (presumably after both zoos had kept Chimps and Gorillas in the past).

This ensured that the zoos could concentrate on breeding their respective animals as well as securing a unique attraction. This seemed to work with both Sydney and Melbourne boasting impressive (and I presume really well regarded) exhibits for these animals.

The keeper said that it was a surprise when Taronga decided to display Gorillas in the 1990s.

Is this something that was well documented? Does anyone know more about this? I thought it was interesting.

20-01-2008

I just read Patrick's response in the Adelaide thread.
We seem to have spoken to the same person, and/or asked the same questions.

Having not been to Taronga in years but remembering the Gorillas there and seeing Melbourne's oft heard about exhibit, I have to say that Melbourne's effort with the Gorillas was obviously far more impressive.
Sydney's feels like a typical zoo enclosure where as Melbourne's was a great surprise (the hut was great and I was surprised to see the Gorillas again further down the path).

Melbourne's enclosure seems much much larger (not sure how much larger in reality) and more interesting.

Just on the Chimps in relation to the Gorillas, having visited Taronga many times before and after the Gorillas' return I have to say I'm always much more interested in the Chimps.
Does anyone have any feedback about the success of the Gorillas in terms of public reaction?