Species you oppose to the holding off

Species you oppose to the holding off
12-01-2008

I was wondering about some things ,when reading through the site.

I've seen some pretty strong opinions already.

To me has risen the question if any of you oppose to the holding of certain species in zoos (I'm not talking about circusses and such ,those to me are in no case acceptable).
If so ,I think it'd be a good idea to tell us to the keeping of which species you oppose.

I personally am not very strongly opposed to most species, but I must tell I'm not a big fan of the popular species.
I'm most strongly opposed to dolphins and orcas - which I am even very strongly against ; I'm opposed to dolfinaria and my belief is they should dissapear, these animals no longer kept in zoos.
There's been enough fuss about it , I don't need to tell you all.

I'm also opposed to apes. I've never actually liked these animals - neither have they ever actually gained my interest for even minutes.
Maybe it's the similarity with humans, I do not know. I've seen some good exhibits ,but most are inadequate. Many groups are also inadequate.
I just don't feel right about their keeping.

I'm more or less also opposed to elephants, considering the fact they are highly intelligent and very demanding animals (in space, care and more) ; plus, they often show abnormal and stereotypical behaviour (I've seen it many times in many zoos).
Also ,the breeding does not seem to be working out very well.
I'm not sure, but for now I do not feel oké about elephant keeping.
I have the same feeling for rhinos.

Bears are an other one. I haven't seen much good exhibits so far. A few indeed, but even in those, I've seen stereotypical behaviour.
I'm also pretty irritated by the fact some zoos still keep them in groups, although they are not social animals.
I'm not sure if a really adequate ,sufficient exhibit for them can actually be built. I've seen very good tries ,but I'm not sure.
I feel the same for big cats and wolfs.

Birds of prey is the last category. They are very often inadequately housed ; I also oppose to the use in shows (after having had an accident - a vulture unexpectedly landing pretty much on me- during a show) ; they say it's educational, but I haven't seen much good shows so far.
The birds are often chained and even starved before these. And it to me doesn't feel right to see eagles in cages.

__________________
"Only two things are infinite : the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

12-01-2008

I Agree with you on Dophins, Orcas & Eagles.

I Believe Bears, Apes & Elephnats can be kept in good conditions. Same goes for birds of prey if given enough room though some zoos are just horrible in keeping them on chains or in extremly small cages

13-01-2008

@Xerxes: there are a lot of different species that you are opposed to! But you mention a number of mammals that traditionally struggle in captivity, and I'd have to say that elephants are almost always poorly showcased in any collection. And I'm also sick and tired of walking past horrrible bear pits that continue to show up in zoos.

13-01-2008

I have not said I'm truelly against the keeping of all these species. Not at all. Some are wonderfull animals, that I'd rather not see dissapear.
Only dolphins,orcas and apes I'm actually very much opposed too, as well as elephants.
The first three in my opinion should be phased out on short term.
Elephants are indeed often poorly showcased. I've though seen a few very good exhibits though.
Considering the bear pits : I know the thing. They have dissapeared in many places in western europe ,but still exists.
I've seen some oke or pretty good bear exhibits ; some were built instead of old bear pits. I've even seen a few using the principles of the old bear pits (moat,etc) ,but they were much bigger, and no concrete.
Likewise , they are more acceptable.
Sadly ,these terrible pits still exist. I hope they will dissapear.
By the way, I still have difficulties with many of even the very best exhibits for bears and some other animals.

__________________
"Only two things are infinite : the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

13-01-2008

Keeping birds of prey myself I don't have a problem with them in zoos, but then I am biased. Seems a little strange that you are ok with elephants being kept at zoos, where they have to live in enclosures, yet eagles which can be trained and flown free, exercised properly and at least occasionally have freedom you don't agree with. Not sure what falconry is like where you are but we certainly never 'chain' any of the raptors up. If you mean the tethering of the birds with specially designed equipment then that’s a different thing. Some species benefit from being tethered sometimes. For example many falcon species are quite highly strung, if they were trained to fly and kept loose in an aviary they would thrash around and injure their selves. If tethered the falcon can be trained to remain calm and sit (as it would in the wild) until the time came for it to exercise. The alternative is to keep the falcon fat and leave it in an aviary to sit and look pretty. So the option is, tethered sometimes and given the opportunity to fly freely or sit in an aviary, loose but with no reason to fly any where, even if the aviary is huge. I don't like to see raptors tethered all the time, and not keen on owls being tethered for long periods of time at zoos. If you have never found a flying display educating then I would guess you have never seen a good one. I do agree with you on the orcas and dolphins to an extent. Having said that, if they are trained and kept busy then that has to be better than just floating about in a pool. I am not really opposed to any species being kept properly but the thing I am most opposed to, and again its mainly birds of prey, is wild disabled raptors being kept in aviaries and displayed to the public. Never seen this done at a ‘proper’ zoo but some smaller places does it. These are just my opinions.

14-01-2008

Look, I have never said I agree to the keeping of elephants. Actually, I do not, or only to a low extent. I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the keeping of elephants.
I may have been a little strong on raptors though.
I haven't said I'm opposed to the training and free flying; I'm not. I like to see these birds flying free and getting their exercise. The only thing disturbing me, is used methods, and often seeing these birds in inadequate housing.

Birds are often chained, or as you like to call it, tethered as call it.
I was talking about exactly that.
This picture is not a good example ,maybe, but indicated what I was reacting against.

I understand these birds are being used for hunting (which is only their natural behaviour, by the way). It's only an example.
I do not react against some using these wonderful birds for hunting.
I was only saying I do not like seeing these birds in terribly small, horribly inadequate cages ,often even without a higher place or branch to sit on (I've seen it).
The chaining disturbs me. I've seen tethered birds without shelter from the sun, without drinking water ,and more. This is unacceptable in my opinion.
I understand some animals that are trained cannot stay calm when let loose in an aviary. But it to me does not feel right to see the birds chained up.
It leaves me with a very uneasy feeling ; some have used it against falconry and zoos a lot. Here at least, it is also against the animal welfare laws to do so.
I understand you consider the tethering to be a valid method for these birds.
But I cannot except it, even knowing the reasons. I've seen many huge ,large and small aviaries. I have indeed noticed the birds are often fat and inactive. Now birds of prey usually sit still for long time (even in nature) looking out, but still.
I also noticed birds used in shows, are often not.
I know why you are seeing what you said, and I understand.
I do consider free flying an option, but tethering should be kept to a minimum, as I cannot imagine but the animal not feeling well being chained.

Look, I've seen many flying displays. Would be very surprising not having seen a single good one,wouldn't it ?
I have seen some in zoos and parks that are described to be high quality.
I'm just not keen on the keeping of raptors.
Maybe it's because I already as a child, saw these birds in sad cages, right from the start. It's only the last few years that I've seen a few good housings.
I may have told before, but I will say again WHY exactly I'm no longer (note ,no longer, I loved them before) keen on flying displays. It's not just the chaining up and the way some handle the birds, plus the hear-says of birds being starved or other way abused.
It's something that happened during a show. Look ,they were using a young I believe lappet-faced vulture.
This animal was released ; I was sitting a bit in front of a wooden wall lining the show area. The animal was supposed to land on the wall ,but obviously miscalculated and instead went all the way down over the public.
It landed right besides me ; I remember feeling the tips of the wing in neck. Of course, I had not expected this, and I ws kinda scared.
Note that it was the second time I was in that particular zoo ; the first time a similar thing happened to other people.
They also have birds sit down on people's heads (with hats, but still).
After this event, I've never been keen on flying displays again.
I do have seen somle educative ones. But to me, education is more than just letting a few birds loose and maybe giving a little talk.
I'm not sure if the given information does actually penetrate into the minds of the public (to mine it does, but I'm not the most common type of visitor).
I have seen good and educative flying displays, but I do not like them anymore.
I'm not speaking out against falconry; I'm just saying I cannot accept some things.
It's maybe just emotion ; I get very double feelings when seeing birds chained up or in horrible cages.

Considering the dolphins : I'm not keen at all on shows with animals. I find the comparision with the circus - which I'm very much against - all to obvious. Plus ,even if kept somewhat good, my thought is dolphins and orcas can not be kept properly.
I've read enough reports on it, I've seen some things my self.
I do not believe dolphins and orcas can possibly be kept adequately.

These are my beliefs. I respect yours, but I beg to differ.

__________________
"Only two things are infinite : the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

14-01-2008

I'm opposed to the way that some zoos keep some species; but even if a zoo keeps a species relatively poorly, we should expect the zoo to improve things, perhaps by passing the animals to a better home, rather than making sweeping statements about the species being unsuitable for keeping in captivity.
I believe that most species of animal can be kept successfully in captivity if enough time and trouble and money is spent. Of course they may not make very good displays, so they may not be suitable for zoos.
In my opinion, there are a few groups of species that should not be kept at all with current techniques and technology; either because they need so much space or they have such specialised requirements or they are so sensitive.
I'm sure my list is not complete, but I would include

• whales, dolphins and porpoises
• some of the insectivorous mammals, eg desmans
• swifts
• swallows and martins (perhaps some species might be suitable)
• albatrosses, shearwaters, frigate birds and possibly other large seabirds

Alan

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When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

14-01-2008

Off course you are entitled to differ. I completely understand your opinion , many people have your opinion on tethering raptors but until you are involved in it I can see why it would be hard to see it from another point of view. Birds should NEVER be tethered without shelter or water that is cruel. I can see why you would not be keen on displays having had a bad experience. We will have to agree to disagree on the tethering of raptors (it does not involve chains so won’t use that term). Since falconry began some 2000 years ago people have disagreed on what is acceptable. The zoo regs in England mean birds are not allowed to be tethered all year, must be flown a certain amount of times and must have shelter and water at all times. I also agree that throughout the world raptors are housed in inadequate enclosures, but the same can be said for any species kept. I do not like circuses myself and am not overly keen on the ‘tricks’ that some animals are expected to do. However if they are trained correctly and happy to do it then at least it gives them something to do. Sometimes my birds do not feel like flying, that’s their choice but the least I can do is give them the opportunity. I am in the unfortunate passion of dealing with raptors which have not been housed correctly. To be fair the rescues are from private keepers and not zoos. I have also seen the injuries caused by free lofting birds which should have been tethered. I can a sure you (although only with my own) that the equipment used is comfortable and certainly in no way harms the birds. If they were not contented they would not sit on their perches but bate (jump) constantly. The falcons you show are obviously in excellent condition and the equipment is pretty much similar to what we use (note no chains). However they should have shelter. I do not wish to argue, its interesting to hear other peoples opinions. I doubt anywhere in the world can house Orcas or Dolphins the way they ideally need, it’s a shame that no one has tried them in vast pools, perhaps its simply not do able. I cannot really comment as have never even seen, let alone cared for such things. Any way, please don’t be offended, simply voicing my thoughts. On another note, being nosy, where was the pic taken?

14-01-2008

I understand your opinion. It's an interesting and difficult debate.

Btw ,about the pic. I should've added a source, I just wanted to illustrate what I was talking about and searched a pic on google using 'falconry' as criterium.
It's not a shot I made. Seeing the surroundings ,I think it's in Arabian world somewhere. Rich Arabians have used raptors for hunting since a very long time.

__________________
"Only two things are infinite : the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

14-01-2008

I don't oppose housing any animals if conditions are good.

Bottlenose dolphins are were well housed in Hardewijk, Holland. They have large lake (perhaps it's natural pond, anyway bottom is sandy) and there is a group of over ten animals.

Bears are now well housed in many zoos. Rhenen, Bern, small nature park near Zurich all have fenced chunks of forest for brown bears. Bears behave naturally and fencing cost relatively little (as long as zoo grounds have space).

Birds of prey thrive in captivity. Most peregrine falcons in Central Europe and all California Condors descend from birds raised in captivity using experience of falconers. California condor subject I don't want to touch - idiots chaining themselves to zoo gates demanding that condors die with dignity.

Xerxes - are these falcons in a zoo? If they are falconer falcons from Middle East, keeping birds in that region is put to shame by zoos and falconers in Europe.

Perhaps some people seen only old and outdated zoos - then visit more.

14-01-2008

There are several species I'm opposed to having in zoos, which I can easily divide in two groups:
1. Parasites (ecto-/endo)
2. Vermins (cockroaches, pharao ants, brown rats etc.)

About the other animals mentioned above: it's very easy to have an opinion solely based on personal emotions. However, it's usually way more difficult to back up this opposition with rational, verifiable and precise arguments and examples. In fact, this is very true in this example. Just saying "I'm opposed to keeping animal x in a zoo" without comprehensible, smart argumentation and only thumbing on respecting one another's opinion won't do.

In the case of the two groups mentioned above, the reasons for being opposed to having them in a zoo should be clear to everyone ...

14-01-2008

Are they aware that it was humans who nearly wiped them off the face of the planet in the first place and that it wasn't natural selection?

Somehow, I don't see poaching, habitat destruction or lead poisoning as "dieing with dignity"...

Anywho back on topic, the only types of animal I oppose the keeping of, are the cetaceans, just because I don't believe any zoo can keep them in suitable exhibits, whereas with enough resources; elephants, apes and bears can be kept quite content.

14-01-2008

Look ,please... you could be a bit more respectfull ,I think. I find the way you are speaking rather rude.

My purpose was not to debate. I have heard rational and verifiable arguementation on at least some of these species.
I'm not giving these, as I did not consider it usefull. I'm not wanting to do so either. It would lead us, I think ,to far. It could be an endless debate between pro's and contra's.
The rest is from personal experience, and yes, some emotion, which I know won't do.

It's not all emotion. Part is based on seen examples and argumentation.
I'd say I have maybe expressed my self to strongly on species.
But indeed, many of what I've seen for certain species is inadequate. I've seen many good zoos; so it's not just that.

I'm not wanting to debate about it, as I don't think the debate is adding anything ; plus I'm not ready to do and I do not have the time.

I could give some argumentation, but I'm not sure if I can do so, if based on experience (and not emotion).

I could back up my opinion, which has got it's basis, but I'm not going to do so when spoken to in this way.

__________________
"Only two things are infinite : the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

14-01-2008

Not being funny, but didn't you start this thread?

If you didn't want others opinion and discussion, or don't have time for it (and you seem to have invested a fair amount of time in lengthy replies so far) then why did you start it??

Such a subject was bound to be contraversial and stimulate some strong opinions......

Please don't take others writing style personally, its all part of the fun, no one is out to insult anyone on a personal level. Some people make their respect for others opinions very clear in their replies while for others it is implicit in the fact that they have replied at all...

Enjoy the forum, thats what its about!

14-01-2008

There's a border between expression and being brutal and rude in my opinion.
This was intended to be personal, in my opinion.

Look, saying I do not want other's opinions and discussions, is over the top.
I have started this thread to hear more opinions.
I have not started it to start endless debates ; to my believe ,even logical arguementation in this case will not do.
At least in my case, it will not. I'm not a good debater. There are things I can debate, but I know I cannot on this one.

Then why did I start this ? To hear opinions.

PS : I do NOT intent to start a fight or to be rude. I mean no harm.
I'm not intending to let things go wrong on my second day here; I'm not sure what I ought to do... maybe I've gone a bit far indeed.

__________________
"Only two things are infinite : the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein