Misinformation at Howletts » Howletts Wild Animal Park

28-05-2008

exactly- it must be rather depressing to have to go through the motions of this scheme if its really as pointless as it seems. I am not sure why Port Lympne are still breeding from their lions either- this seems to be increasing a population to no particular purpose now.

28-05-2008

Am sure there is some insane reasoning! So they came claim more misdirected information. Like them returning Sumatran Rhinos to the wild! (Semi-wild more like it)

29-05-2008

I'm hazarding a guess you may be a curious Howletts or PL keeper? Many people on this forum have been keepers, or still are, or involved in captive animal conservation/management, and will have a certain level of knowledge already, plus if you have a long memory and have read annual reports or IZN over the years you will often remember events no longer publicised by a collection or, in contrast, still very much publicised but incorrectly so.

I think the most critical discussion often happens with collections members have a great deal of respect for, the really bad zoos tend to just be ignored.

29-05-2008

Oh it was meant entirely tongue in cheek, I was actually heckled by a bunch of creationists during a talk many years ago where I mentioned evolution during a talk. How do you deal with a creationist heckler?! I had no idea.

29-05-2008

yeah, yeah, its okay, I know it wasn't serious...but if you did it it would ruin the chances of getting any serious information...

29-05-2008

To my knowledge, none of the ocelots in the UK are pure subspecies. Interestingly, the Rare Species Conservation Centre list Brazilian ocelot but they are not shown on ISIS to be any different to the rest of the UK population. If there is any collection likely to bring in pure animals it will be them.

The same was true with the few remaining Margay in Britain in the early 90's until the Ridgeway trust in Sussex recieved some rescued 'pure' animals from south America. These imports reflect the current moderate population of Margay in the UK, including those at Port Lympne, as I think the founder animals originated from the ridgeway trust. Strange though that ISIS doesn't list UK margay as a particular subspecies....as for ocelots, unless pure subspecies come in from rescue centres or the few in North American collections of known origin, I suspect the UK ocelot population was at that time and will remain generic, hence the inappropriate (and not repeated) release of ocelots by John Aspinall.

Yes, Pertinax is right about a very similar situation with the Woolly monkeys in Cornwall, again a release which was not thought through fully. It was when it became apparrent that the whole group must remain in captivity indefinitely due, in part to their mixed ancestry, that the sanctuary instigated the 'no breed' policy, although the group have naturally gravitated towards producing male offspring as the gene pool decreased, with only the one adult female left I think. I think it is a good thing they are concentrating on capuching rehabilitation these days, although educationally i hope there is always a place in the UK where you can see a thriving, multi-generational group of woolly monkeys in a semi-natural setting, regardless of their subspecies status....

29-05-2008

Oh but imagine it though, the shame of being on a day out with friends and being asked to leave for disrupting a talk on the basis of factual innaccuracies

29-05-2008

I'd like to add that I've been visiting Howletts(& PL) for very many years- my first couple of visits to Howletts being before it was ever open to the public.
The majority of people working in the zoos tend to be younger and perhaps without the longterm knowledge that some of us have accumulated over many years. Obviously though they should have a better knowledge than outsiders of exactly what is currently going on in the places they work and this is where their input is valuable, to quash any misdirected speculation or innacuracy if it arises...

29-05-2008

sometimes I've felt like taking over the talk myself....

29-05-2008

yes, that was not good. I felt they were very wrong to suggest it, given they lost two females and Torgamba was being returned to a captive sanctuary, and it lost them some credibility in my opinion. But of course it sounds good...maybe that's why they continue the 'myth' of the lions as another example of their conservation work- but they do have several genuine reintroduction projects- gorillas, rhino etc etc so I don't understand why they would need to. Easier than disbanding them?

30-05-2008

the most bizarre during those 'dodgy release' years would have to be the 'Burmese python release'.....done completely unilaterally, and remarkable in part because pythons were the first and only reptiles at the parks, so Howletts was not exactly renowned for its forays into reptile conservation. I don't know how scientific the release was, or how much follow-up or ecological impact data was gathered, it really came across as an opportunistic release of surplus python hatchlings from howletts rather than a long-term goal to repopulate asia with 'endangered' pythons.

I agree....it is astounding and impressive that the JAF has release rhino and lowland gorilla, with those credentials I often wonder why they maintain the less watertight claims apart from maybe to have a long list to speak of.

30-05-2008

It sounds better if you reel of a list of 'successes' rather than just with two species. In fact the earliest gorilla reintroductions were problematic too- the first two males sent from Howletts both died, and possibly others from a later group too I think. It was kept quiet until the head gorilla keeper at the time publicly 'came out' in an article in the press and quickly 'left' the parks soon after.

I believe those earliest gorilla releases may have been rather rushed, possibly because old Aspinall wanted to see it happen before he died... They seem to have been more successful since, and the black rhinos appear an ideal subject for this type of scheme. Port Lympne could almost singlehandedly make a real difference in Black Rhino conservation, I think, though I'm not sure if the Gorilla reintroductions are that worthwhile- too much against them?

30-05-2008

It is very much a symbolic conservation move, as in the richer north we are still completely blind to the simple relationships between the mineral wealth we plunder from those central african nations, and way in which the resulting poverty causes conflict and a misappropriation of their natural resources, let alone the desire to protect. But, as far as pointless symbolic conservation moves go, it is nonetheless pretty impressive and way ahead of that of many other establishments.

31-05-2008

If they didn't remove and send out groups of young Gorillas to Africa, Howletts would have to stop breeding them now- or build more additional accomodation, or make them more available to other zoos.. I've heard that the existing enclosures aren't being added to with any new ones, but some of their groups (particularly in the original kitchen garden area) are overcrowded, particularly those still using the original run of cages which housed the first group of gorillas they ever had- so that's about fifty year old accomodation now and rather archaic. In a public zoo this would no doubt engender critisism (as at Chessington, despite that being a much larger enclosure) but Howletts seem to be able to get away with it on the strength of their reputation- "Howletts breed more Gorillas than anywhere else, so it must be okay..."

31-05-2008

going back to the music festival, dont west midlands safari park do the same thing over there, it must have some stress on the animals.

and reading the whole of this forum, it seems such a shame to educate the british public with unreliable and false information, one of the main reasons for taking children to the zoo is to educate them, but if the zoos are giving out the wrong information, maybe we shouldnt bother.

i remember when i was little at a zoo they told me that a turtle was an amphibian and i refused to listen to information whcih would not benefit my education. what do they teach zookeepers at training courses now days?

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