European elephants #2

05-09-2008

I didn't say it was necessary to beat him, that was wrong of the keeper to do so.
And I didn't know that the training was circus like, in which case it has no benefit to an elephant in a zoo.
Yes, I know it's forbidden to smack children, and I think it's another ridiculous law that the UK government so kindly gave us too *rolls eyes*.
Abusing kids (and animals) is not on, but there's a difference between apprehending and abusing, weather it be a child or elephant.

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"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little."
-George Carlin

05-09-2008

I think you have to look at the different cases, in asian countries, when training elephants they simply whack the elephant when they do something wrong, but of course not too hard. Again I think it will come down to comparision of elephants and humans, of course I'll sound byist here but if you want to punish elephants like humans, give them time out or ground them, not let them have treats for a while or such,

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Usually only one way to settle things Shuffle off or DDR battle that's the asian way,

05-09-2008

That's my point: Realistically any elephant in free contact will need to be hit on some level, however in the video the keeper does hit the elephant too hard and too much.
And I not sure if a time out would work for an elephant

__________________
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little."
-George Carlin

05-09-2008

well, perhaps for sort of more so mental punishment than physical,?

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Usually only one way to settle things Shuffle off or DDR battle that's the asian way,

08-09-2008

If you want to train an elephant to be a potential 'killer elephant', this is the right thing to do. Will they ever learn? When a keeper is hurt or killed by an elephant, it's always the elephant to blame, not the way the zoo is keeping the elephants.

The keeper is always the victim, but in stead the elephant is being made a victim by beating him when he was young. Even the mahouts of India, Birma, etc. are being killed by their own elephants. Why? When such accident happend everone is shouting that the mahout was such a tender man who loved his elephant, and now the same elephant has killed him.

Recently a group of elephant researchers published an article where they stated that even elephants can suffer from PTSD. Elephants who saw their own family killed during a 'culling' but who where young and not killed but sold to zoos and circuses, are potential 'killers'. This can also be with the Asian elephants who are being 'prepared' for a circus life in the training camps. This can explain why an elephant one day can 'go crazy', and can kill his keeper.

08-09-2008

Elephants are truely intelligent creatures, the points you bring up are very true, though they are much like humans, their motives and life experinces might have not just been triggered by life experince but perhpas due to that particular elephant, Musth is an issue as well, though most people know what to do and the dangers of it,

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Usually only one way to settle things Shuffle off or DDR battle that's the asian way,

09-09-2008

What a horrible video! I have sent a protest note to the zoo via its web site. I suggest you do the same.

09-09-2008

I would say the keepers reaction was very reactionary, taken by surprise, but there must be a gentler way to reprimand the elephant, btw where was the mother elephant?

09-09-2008

I agree but you can do some silly things when taken by surprise!

09-09-2008

Training of calves in Berlin is usually done without the mother, I guess because the mother could become protective of her calf and dangerous for the keeper. Seperating from the mother makes this sort of training even more stressing for the calf.

09-09-2008

Just wondering how throughly are the calves trained as in do they just learn basic commands or is there an elephant show in Berlin?

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Usually only one way to settle things Shuffle off or DDR battle that's the asian way,

09-09-2008

Not really a circus-like performance. Watch the video here: Tierpark Berlin / ERLEBEN / Erlebnis Tierpark / Reingeschaut im... / Elefanten-Kindergarten

But I still hate to see these stupid things. Let the animals live their own life!

09-09-2008

I agree we are always complaining about how people are saying no to infrigements of our freedom, elephants deserve better!

__________________
Usually only one way to settle things Shuffle off or DDR battle that's the asian way,

10-09-2008

My final words on the beating of the elephant calf:

I am not an expert on the handling of big animals, but I am stilled appalled by the reaction of this German animal "zookeeper". HE KEPT ON HITTING THE LITTLE ELEPHANT CALF WITH AN INSTRUMENT MADE OF STEEL (the "bullhook") when the litle elephant was running away from him, scared as hell!

God damn it!

However, 30 years ago, having just finished my education but not yet found a job suited for my degree, I worked at a slaughter house in Sweden. There I led horses (as well as big bulls weighing up to a 1000 kilos) to their death. Sometimes they put me in literally life threatening situations, but I would never have dreamed of treating them the way that this German "zookeeper" treated this poor little elephant kid.

10-09-2008

Vegetarian side talking (lol), but personally I think having them killed was more cruel. (Don't want to start another debate with this by the way).
My final words: I don't think the keeper was right in reacting the way he did, but as Kiang said I'm sure that his reaction was purely down to self defence and surprise, and he must love the elephants he works with to put himself through the job of working with them, which I imagine is very challenging.
They would need to show their dominance over the elephant but that was too much, especially hitting him as much as the keeper did, even as he ran off.

__________________
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little."
-George Carlin