European elephants

10-05-2008

Alexander could break him though, depending on how many confirm pregnancies there are at Amersfoort. And also Khaing Phyo Phyo of Antwerp.

Then again a number of his offspring have died.

10-05-2008

Wasn't their a stillbirth by Khaing Lwin Htoo in 1998? It says that on elefanten.de, elephant.se and i remember also on Untbwe's Olifantenhuis.

10-05-2008

I would say Radza has a few more good breeding years in him yet and he has a number of calfs to his credit, so what are you really trying to say

10-05-2008

Mark what i'm trying to say is that Radza, does have a few years left, but there aren't going to be a very large number of calves under his belt as Naing Thein. ( depending)

10-05-2008

I would guess a number of things are involed here like the number of breeding females which live in each zoos herd, the larger the number of females the more likey the bigger number of calfs

10-05-2008

Emmen is a good example,

10-05-2008

Untbwe, do they ever bring in outside females to breed to him?, He is such an impressive bull

10-05-2008

I know i'm not Untbwe, (hope you don't think i'm cocky) but i'm pretty sure breeding with him is just kept within Emmen.

10-05-2008

Yes I know Dragon, Untbwe has a good idea of what happens there so he may know, cheers anyway

10-05-2008

The status of a bull elephant must not be judged by his previous track record, but by the number of surviving and reproducing calves he sires.
Another theme is the general current health of the bull (Calvin f.i. is in dire straits ...). A third theme is age - reproductive age in the wild is after 20-25 years of age (in zoos quite a number of underage bulls sire offspring when successful, but those in a breeding position that do not are simply too inexperienced).

In EEP Asian Elephant needs are:
A) Sufficient spaces/holders for young bulls or bulls only.
B) Sufficient spaces/holders for 30+-over aged flatline cows.
C) Sufficient spaces/holders for breeding groups with 2-4 enclosures (1-2 bull facilities, 1 breeding area and 1 maternal matriarchal cow enclosure.

Zoos currently have a trend towards planning for breeding facilities and somewhat neglecting the real and early need for bulls only and elderly/flatliner cows facilities!

Zoos - in particular in central Europe and BRD - do not transfer bulls and cows along matriarchal lineages regularly and thus not providing for breeding opportunities for currently non-breeding individuals. F.i. Zoo Berlin (just 1 breeding age cow), Zoo Leipzig (3 breeding cows, only 1 breeder), Zoo Muenchen (1 breeding age cow+1 possible, twice now a stillbirth of a multiparous cow, perhaps lack of a matriarch in the herd as the elder cows are continually separated).

Zoos need to sent out lone Asian elephants to locations with companions, be they breeding age individuals or non-breeding individuals. F.i. Dresden Zoo (1 cow with Africans), La Barben (1 cow), Magdeburg (1 cow with African companion - zoo to change to Africans after 2010), Napoli (1 cow alone), Gdansk (1 cow alone), Plock (1 bull alone - on transfer recommendation?), Kaliningrad (1 cow alone), Serb and Slovene zoos (3 cows alone each), Cordoba and Elche, Spain (1 cow alone each), Belfast (1 cow alone - pensioneer as Al will testify), Paignton (1 cow with African companion - what is long term view with elephants?) + the undermentioned bulls in Ukraine/Russia.

Zoos - in particular in eastern Europe - are not cooperating with the Asian Elephant EEP. F.i. Kiev and Perm Zoos both have a proven bull. The current EEP requires additional unrelated breeding bulls (sometimes to replace currently non-functioning breeding groups - e.g. Muenster).

How is the Species Coordinator influencing these challenges?

10-05-2008

I am quite confused as well , there are some cases of when bulls that are proven breeders are sent to non-breeding facilities,
Like you said such as Perm with the bull elephant John,
Emmen Zoo, in 2003 said in quite a number of news articles that they were moving their 23 year old bull at the time Naing Thein, because his daughter Mingalar Oo was going to be used for breeding. Then he was sent to Prague zoo. He does have 12 living offspring. So i first thought he was moving because he had enough offspring according to the EEP standards. But Prague zoo actually tried to breed the young stud with two females!:

Preya, now in Ameins and Shanti.
Why do they sent a young bull breeder to a zoo with a low chance in reproduces, yet they still try to breed? Why not send to UstÃÂ* n. Labem?
Hope i'm not getting on anyones bad side,

11-05-2008

No, Emmen has not the facilities for guest elephants. And besides Radza is living amongst the females, he does'nt use his own enclosure. In fact, the bulls house is closed. So a guest elephant is not an option for this large and complex herd.

And Khaing Lwin Htoo indeed had a stillbirth on July 9, 1998

@Jelle:
I noticed that there is a new trend in Western Europe zoos to realize bulls exhibits. For example Dierenrijk near Eindhoven who is building a new elephants exhibit right now. They will keep only three bulls, and the first two are Kan Kaung and Than Myan of Emmen. I also heard of some German zoos who will make bulls exhibits.

But your're right there are two many zoos with only one or two (older) females or with mixed species or just one bull:

Erevan (Armenia) 1.0 Em (12)
Sofia (Bulgaria) 0.1 Em (45)
Givskud (Danmark) 0.2 Em (both 38)
Cottbus (Germany) 0.2 Em (39 + 41)
Heidelberg (Germany) 0.2 Em (24 + 40)
Karlsruhe (Germany) 0.2 Em (51 + 52)
Magdeburg (Germany) 0.1 La (25) + 0.1 Em (38)
Neunkirchen (Germany) 0.2 Em (40 + 51)
Amiens (France) 0.2 Em (30 + 34)
La Barben (France) 0.2 Em (33 + 40)
La Teste (France) 1.0 La (22)
Maubeuge (France) 0.2 Em (both 34)
Naples (Italy) 0.1 Em (?)
Pistoia (Italy) 0.2 Em (both 36)
Rome (Italy) 0.2 Em (both 37)
Walding (Austria) 0.2 Em (36 + 39)
Breslau (Poland) 0.1 Em (45)
Danzig (Poland) 0.1 La (38) + 0.1 Em (42)
Kattowitz (Poland) 0.2 La (both 20)
Krakau (Poland) 0.2 Em (28 + 47)
Lodz (Poland) 0.2 Em (47 + 48)
Plock (Poland) 1.0 Em (9)
Jekaterineburg (Russia) 0.1 Em (26)
Kaliningrad (Russia) 0.1 Em (36)
Perm (Russia) 1.0 Em (43)
Kolmarden (Sweden) 0.2 Em (9 + 10)
Belgrad (Serbia) 0.1 Em (41)
Palic (Serbia) 0.1 Em (33)
Bojnice (Slovak) 0.2 La (both 25)
Ljubljana (Slovenia) 0.1 Em (32)
Barcelona (Spain) 0.2 La (27 + 45)
Cordoba (Spain) 0.1 Em (37)
El Vendrell (Spain) 0.2 La (both 39)
El Vergal (Spain) 2.0 La (both 10)
Elche (Spain) 0.1 Em (35)
Jerez (Spain) 0.1 La (22)
Madrid (Spain) 0.2 Em (37 + 39)
Mallorca (Spain) 0.2 Em (both 42)
Valwo (Spain) 0.2 Em (37 + 47)
Liberec (Czech) 0.2 Em (43 + 44)
Ostrau (Czech) 0.2 Em (36 + 46)
Usti nad lebem (Czech) 0.2 Em (21 + 23)
Ankara (Turkey) 0.1 La (35)
Izmir (Turkey) 0.1 Em (11)
Kiew (Ukrain) 1.0 Em (38)
Nikolajew (Ukrain) 0.1 La (31)
Budapest (Hungary) 0.2 Em (38 + 40)
Termez (Uzbekistan) 0.1 Em (39)

A total of 4.0 Em, 55 0.1 Em, 3.0 La and 13 .01 La. These are all elephants who don't breed (or to old for breeding). There are also some zoos with three elephants. Thus there are many potential breeding elephants who are not breeding!

11-05-2008

Not all current captive born zoo elephants will be used in the EEP breeding right? (In fact since the trade in the 1990's between American and European zoos, there has been no elephant bull transfers,)

In cases where a bull has many male offspring example Naing Thein, not every single one will be used for breeding right? So if some zoos intend to have bull facilities, what will happen when the bulls become fully grown? Are zoos making room for them?
Don't mean to be a wet blanket but i'm so confused.

11-05-2008

That's right. The male offspring of Naing Thein is young but until today only two bulls (out of 10) have te opportunity for mating females, however they are still young. The male offspring of this bull:

Bo Gyi â€Â*
Kan Yome â€Â*
Ant Bwe Lay (13), lives in Pont Scorff with two females of 12 and 38 years old.
Aung Naing Lay (10), lives in Kharkiv with one female of the same age.
Tsje Pyan (10), lives in a bulls exhibit in Sevilla
Maung Htoo (10), lives in a bulls exhibit in Sevilla
Aung Bo (6), lives in a bulls exhibit in Sevilla
Aung Si (6), lives in a bulls exhibit in Sevilla
Kan Kaung (5), goes to a bulls exhibit in Dierenrijk near Eindhoven
Than Myan (5), goes to a bulls exhibit in Dierenrijk near Eindhoven
Letsongmon is only 3 years old and lives in Emmen

So, the genes of Naing Thein is not much spread today by his sons, and most are still to young for breeding. But they are part of the EEP and in the future the EEP-holder (Rotterdam Zoo) can decide to use some of them for breeding.

Bulls transfers between Europe and America are rare but within Europe we have seen some the past year: Alexander of Rotterdam went to Antwerp, and later to Amersfoort. Sammy of Amersfoort was going to Rotterdam. Aung Bo and Aung Si of Cologne are now in Sevilla. Timber of Sevilla is now standing in Rotterdam, and recently Nikolai of Amsterdam was transported to Hannover (he is one of the rare transfers from America to Europe; he was born in Rockton, Canada, and came to Europe in 1999)

Only Aung Bo and Aung Si are not for breeding purposes send away.

Kan Kaung and Than Myan of Emmen are also scheduled for transfer but also not for breeding for the near future.

The genes of Naing Thein by his daughters is also not much; he only got three (Mingalar Oo, Ma Palai, and May Yay Yee). They are still living in Emmen. Mingalar Oo has one calf of Radza (Myo Set Kaung) and the two others are coming at the age that Radza can mate them.

Conclusion: In spite of the large offspring of 14 calfs, only 5 of them are able to spread the genes of Naing Thein.

11-05-2008

Untbwe, Thank you for all your Euro elephant input, your photos of Radza are wonderful Cheers