Lowland gorillas in Europe

10-07-2008

[quote=zooman;60686] I know that many males born now are just not going to be used for breeding. So given that experiance todate suggest that the sooner they are placed together the better the chance for long term stability.
/QUOTE]

I agree males put together at a younger age are going to get along better and its sometimes very difficult to get strange fully grown males to live together.

One never knows when even a male of low genetic value may not be required to breed- if suppose several group leaders suddenly die around the same time, creating a sudden niche for previously non-breeding males.

I think there may be a move, with contraception, to limit the number of babies(particularly males) produced nowadays as eventually the number of zoos prepared to create bachelor groups will reach saturation point.

Rigo was an unusual case. Have you read the thread 'Rigo the Gorilla' under Melbourne Zoo where many people have written pages about him? Melbourne were in a difficult situation with him for a long time. I agree that no Gorilla, even a 'lone' silverback, should be denied company of some sort- even if its only visual contact of some sort.

10-07-2008

Morning Pertinax,
just out of bed and the first thing l do is look for your reply! Loving this forum.

So are there plans to limit the amount of males being born. Surely this can only be done by AI. We all know l am sure. That our Rigo's sperm was the first succesfull case of this. Producing the equally stuning Rigo now at jersey.

Did you know that they introduced a black rabbit to his mother before the birth. The only time l have heard of this. Innovative enrichment and of course the primary reason a education device.

Yes thankyou l did fine the Rigo thread, last night.

Tell me Pertinax how diverse in your opinion is the gene pool of captive gorillas. Do you think that we are going to run into problems in the forceable future? What is the number of males and females in captivity at the momment? I often use this amazing link Gorillas Galore - Captive Gorilla Lists - Stud Book It just does not give a total breakdown.

I know of Oliver at Gorilla Haven who is deaf. It seems that for this reason he is not going to be put with Females. He is also a beutifull animal in nature as well as apearance, where they are doing everthing they can for him. Yet he is so desperatley needs to be runing his own troop by now. Hate to think what would have happened to him had it not been for the Dewar's.

You have a good day

Stuart

10-07-2008

'Teaching' females motherhood with dolls or small animals was first used at San Diego- they got the expectant mother to obey simple commands in exchange for treats- e.g. pick up the baby, turn the baby over, and to hold a dummy doll properly. She turned out a good mother to her real baby. Apenheul did a similar thing before their first birth, using short contact sessions with a baby spider monkey. Again it was successful though who knows if the mother gorilla may have been a good mother anyway(?). In Yuska's case it evidently didn't work. Did she try to look after Mzuri?

I think the gene pool in captivity is still large enough, but more movement of animals between the American and European populations is needed now. Some overrepresented lines in Europe are now in danger of dominating the breeding and there have been relatively few exchanges between the large populations now built up in both America & Europe. I can't give you a total population figure- I don't know it. I also use 'Gorillas Galore' but beware there are( and not surprising really) a few innacuracies in the data.

Oliver at 'Gorilla Haven' is another sad case- its obvious he needs some Gorilla company. I imagine they will never breed from him because he's deaf. The best solution perhaps might be a couple or more younger males for company?

Do you know why Gorilla Haven have still only two males? I'm sure there must be other surplus males in North American zoos. Even if GH. have problems with building work now, presumably there is enough housing completed e.g. Oliver's own villa, to take a few more?

10-07-2008

Hi pertinax, Yes mazuri was hanrdreared. I do remmber though. He was in close proximity with him a great deal of the time. He from a early age placed with her for periods of time. This progressing very quickly that he was part of the group full time i think by the age of 2-3. I know melbourne did everything humanly possible. To make sure he was not imprinted with humans more than neccesay. It obviously worked spectacually. Given how he behaves now.

I have herd and read of many ways of educating a expectant mother. I just always thought it was very interesting to use a fluffy black rabbit. Can you imagine how the rabbit felt??? Also the first person to come up with idea at Melbourne. MMM lets get a rabbitt for Yuska!!!!

11-07-2008

...inaccurancies in Gorillas Galore data...

I've checked current Prague troop (2.4, 4 adults). Only thing I found was that sire of Kamba's stillbirth was definitely Richard, not Tadao (it was a male but it doesn't matter much). Not sure about owners of particular individuals I guess it's right.

On behaviour - in Prague troop Kamba looks after both youngsters even more than their real mother Kijivu. Not that Kijivu can't do it, she just hasn't minded her help and now au-paring Kamba seems to adopt both Moja and Tatu a bit. Sadly, this behaviour lessen her chance to have her own offspring while the door is closing for her.

11-07-2008

No it didn't!!! I am not saying he is humanised but something is not right as Mzuri(now called Ya Kwanza) has been surprisingly UNsuccessful as a breeding male at Jersey. They have four females(including one from Melbourne) but he still only breeds with one and ignores the others totally. That isn't normal behaviour. He has only one offspring (the other died recently)- a nearly adult male called 'Mapema' who was mother-reared in the Jersey group and is now with females in Duisburg Zoo, Germany. Mapema is the most likely to carry Rigo's genes into the next generation.

innacurracies in 'Gorillas Galore'
11-07-2008

This is actually a very good document to get data from- but I've noticed particularly some errors concerning whether an animal is wildcaught or captive bred, and a few dates or places of death aren't correct either.

11-07-2008

I think a live rabbit was probably a better choice than a dummy ande they got the colour right too. I presume they had no suitable monkey baby they could use.

Its interesting that I don't think Howletts have ever(?) tried to reintroduce any rejected babies back to their mothers or back into their natal groups at an early age. They form new groups with them instead. Nowadays these babies are sent back to Africa.

Prague Gorillas.
11-07-2008

Does Kamba look after the babies because she is more dominant? Do you know if she(Kamba) is still having oestrus periods and being mated?- hopefully she could still have a baby successfully herself- especially as she shows this strong maternal interest.

11-07-2008

No, Shinda is the dominant one. Kijivu and Kamba are quite equal. I'm not about current situation but I'll ask. I think I read somewhere that Kamba was even nursing (because of the stillburth not so long ago) and that this comlicated any chances of becoming pregnant significantly because it influenced her hormones. They were sceptical but of course there is always hope. She didn't have period at least until February but some mating occured (Richard is mating with all 3 females). Kamba is experienced and calm individual, stabilize the troop and make others feel better.

On the other hand Shinda's situation looks more optimistic. The infamous contraceptive body which couldn't be removed obviously stopped functioning, she is mating, has periods, so if there is no unknown problem it should be a matter of time (she is a bit tougher than her sister but there is no reason to think she would be worse mother than Kijivu is).
I'll update this as soons as I find out more. Prague gorillas are very well marketed (since the reality show project), are the msot popular specie of Prague zoo, have their "Gorilla clan" sort of fanclub etc., so if you care The Revealed (?eský rozhlas) (includes live cameras).

12-07-2008

Many thanks for this update on Prague's gorilla group. It is good news indeed that Shinda may now be able to breed. Also I do hope that 'Kamba' can get pregnant again and have a successful birth- that would be really great news for this older w/c female with no representation. 'Richard' I saw several times at different stages in his growth from young male to silverback, in the all male group in Paignton. I have nice photos of him from Prague Zoo too.